Legislature(2007 - 2008)BARNES 124

03/19/2008 01:00 PM House RESOURCES


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01:04:28 PM Start
01:04:28 PM Confirmation Hearing(s)|| Board of Fisheries
02:29:08 PM Adjourn
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
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+ Bills Previously Heard/Scheduled TELECONFERENCED
                    ALASKA STATE LEGISLATURE                                                                                  
               HOUSE RESOURCES STANDING COMMITTEE                                                                             
                         March 19, 2008                                                                                         
                           1:04 p.m.                                                                                            
                                                                                                                              
MEMBERS PRESENT                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
Representative Carl Gatto, Co-Chair                                                                                             
Representative Craig Johnson, Co-Chair                                                                                          
Representative Anna Fairclough                                                                                                  
Representative Bob Roses                                                                                                        
Representative Paul Seaton                                                                                                      
Representative Peggy Wilson                                                                                                     
Representative Bryce Edgmon                                                                                                     
Representative David Guttenberg                                                                                                 
Representative Scott Kawasaki                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
MEMBERS ABSENT                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
All members present                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
COMMITTEE CALENDAR                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
CONFIRMATION HEARING(S)                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
Board of Fisheries                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
     Melvan E. Morris Jr. - Kodiak                                                                                              
     John E. Jensen - Petersburg                                                                                                
     William S. Brown - Juneau                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
     - CONFIRMATION(S) ADVANCED                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
PREVIOUS COMMITTEE ACTION                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
No previous action to report                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
WITNESS REGISTER                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
WILLIAM S. BROWN, Appointee                                                                                                     
to the Board of Fisheries                                                                                                       
Alaska Department of Fish & Game                                                                                                
Juneau, Alaska                                                                                                                  
POSITION STATEMENT:  Testified as appointee to the Board of                                                                   
Fisheries.                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
JOHN E. JENSEN, Appointee                                                                                                       
to the Board of Fisheries                                                                                                       
Alaska Department of Fish & Game                                                                                                
Petersburg, Alaska                                                                                                              
POSITION  STATEMENT:   Testified  as appointee  to  the Board  of                                                             
Fisheries.                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
MELVAN E. MORRIS JR., Appointee                                                                                                 
to the Board of Fisheries                                                                                                       
Alaska Department of Fish & Game                                                                                                
Kodiak, Alaska                                                                                                                  
POSITION  STATEMENT:   Testified  as appointee  to  the Board  of                                                             
Fisheries.                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
ACTION NARRATIVE                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR  CRAIG  JOHNSON  called  the  House  Resources  Standing                                                             
Committee  meeting  to  order at  1:04:28  PM.    Representatives                                                             
Seaton,  Roses, Edgmon,  Fairclough, Wilson,  Gatto, and  Johnson                                                               
were present  at the call  to order.   Representatives Guttenberg                                                               
and Kawasaki arrived as the meeting was in progress.                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
^CONFIRMATION HEARING(S)                                                                                                        
^Board of Fisheries                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                              
1:04:28 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR JOHNSON announced that  the committee would continue its                                                               
consideration [from  3/17/08] of  the appointments of  Mr. Melvan                                                               
Morris Jr., Mr.  John Jensen, and Mr. William Brown  to the Board                                                               
of  Fisheries.   [Packets contained  biographical information  on                                                               
the appointees.]                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
1:04:39 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR JOHNSON  asked Mr. Brown to  state why he would  like to                                                               
be on the Board of Fisheries and tell about himself.                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
WILLIAM S.  BROWN, Appointee  to the  Board of  Fisheries, Alaska                                                               
Department of  Fish &  Game, said  he has  lived in  Alaska since                                                               
1991.  He was a "Navy brat" who  grew up all over.  He received a                                                               
Ph.D. in  economics from the  University of Colorado in  1977 and                                                               
taught economics at  the university level for 23  years, the last                                                               
9 of which were at  the University of Alaska-Southeast in Juneau.                                                               
One of  his main teaching  fields was resource  and environmental                                                               
economics.   He  left  the  university in  2000  and  now runs  a                                                               
fishing reel  repair shop in Juneau.   He has been  an avid sport                                                               
fisherman since catching  his first fish at age  four and fishing                                                               
may be his main  passion in life.  In the  summer he fishes three                                                               
or four times a week and he travels  in the winter to fish.  Over                                                               
the  years he  has sport  fished throughout  the world,  catching                                                               
marlin in Mexico, Nile perch in Egypt, and taimen in Mongolia.                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
MR. BROWN  stated he believes he  can offer three main  things to                                                               
the board.   First,  his economics background  allows him  to see                                                               
the costs  and benefits of  alternative decisions, as well  as to                                                               
understand  the  economics  behind various  allocation  proposals                                                               
presented  to the  board.   He  emphasized that  while  he is  an                                                               
economist  and understands  the power  of economic  reasoning, he                                                               
also knows the  economy is composed of people.   People, culture,                                                               
and history are  every bit as important as  economics when making                                                               
fish board  decisions.   Second, his  passion for  fishing brings                                                               
with it a passion to protect  the resource and assure that future                                                               
generations have as  many fish to catch, consume, and  to sell as                                                               
there  are  today.    He  said  he  understands  the  concept  of                                                               
sustainable harvest and supports  it without reservation.  Third,                                                               
he  will come  to the  board  without an  agenda.   He  is not  a                                                               
commercial fisherman  or a  charter guide; he  does not  make his                                                               
living from fishing.  He is  an avid sport fisherman, but he buys                                                               
fish  in  winter  and recognizes  the  importance  of  commercial                                                               
fishing  to  the  state  and of  subsistence  fishing  to  Alaska                                                               
residents.                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
1:07:33 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR GATTO asked if it takes a Ph.D. to fix a fishing reel.                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
MR.  BROWN responded  he taught  for 23  years and  that is  long                                                               
enough  to do  anything.   He was  a tenured  full professor  and                                                               
enjoyed the university.  It was  time to leave the university but                                                               
not Juneau.   He  said his  passion is  fishing, he  collects old                                                               
fishing tackle, and  no one in town fixed fishing  reels.  Now it                                                               
is not  a hobby,  it is a  business and he  makes as  much fixing                                                               
fishing reels as he did as a tenured professor.                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR  GATTO  inquired  whether   there  is  compensation  for                                                               
members of the Board of Fisheries.                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
MR. BROWN understood  there is per diem.  In  further response to                                                               
Co-Chair Gatto, Mr.  Brown said he did not know  how much the per                                                               
diem is and  affirmed that it is  not an issue for him.   He said                                                               
he works and makes plenty  of money, and that the problem-solving                                                               
and intellectual  stimulation he  got at  the university  he will                                                               
now  get from  serving on  the  Board of  Fisheries.   Allocation                                                               
proposals are  important and are  hard decisions to make,  and he                                                               
would like to do that.                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
1:09:41 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  EDGMON commented  that he  thinks Mr.  Brown will                                                               
make a  great addition  to the  board.  He  noted that  costs and                                                               
benefits are  linear, whereas  on the  Board of  Fisheries things                                                               
are  not linear  and  do not  add  up.   It  is  making the  best                                                               
decision  possible  with  the  best   possible  science  and  not                                                               
everyone will be pleased with the decision.                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MR.  BROWN  noted he  is  not  a slave  to  economics.   He  uses                                                               
economics to  lend insight  into the problem  and it  will always                                                               
help in  making decisions.   However,  he is  sure there  will be                                                               
lots of  decisions that are  not efficient in an  economic sense.                                                               
He said he was trying to get  to that when he stated that people,                                                               
culture,  and  history are  just  as  important as  raw  numbers;                                                               
however, trying to make decisions  without any biological data or                                                               
economic data is not good.                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
1:11:37 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE   GUTTENBERG   asked   if  Mr.   Brown   will   be                                                               
representing a specific seat [on the Board of Fisheries].                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
MR. BROWN replied not that he  understands.  There are five seats                                                               
on the  board and he  is taking  one of them.   It happens  to be                                                               
that the  person he would  be replacing  is also from  Juneau and                                                               
was  primarily a  sport  fisherman but  also  did commercial  and                                                               
charter fishing  in the  past.  Other  than academics,  Mr. Brown                                                               
said his experience is as a sport fisherman.                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
1:12:16 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE GUTTENBERG  related that  there are issues  in the                                                               
Interior  dealing with  allotment,  allocation, and  bypass.   He                                                               
said his concern is having a  viewpoint on the Board of Fisheries                                                               
that represents all  users and the health of  the entire fishery.                                                               
He is  looking forward to  someone coming  to this board  that is                                                               
able to analyze  the whole picture and not represent  one type of                                                               
fishing  over another.   He  inquired whether  Mr. Brown  has any                                                               
background in fisheries in his professional world.                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
MR. BROWN  answered no, other  than teaching courses  in resource                                                               
economics  which included  fisheries.   He  has not  served on  a                                                               
board of fish  before.  He said  he is coming at  this as someone                                                               
who is  passionate about preserving  the resource  and passionate                                                               
about  fishing.    He said  he  is  a  quick  study and  this  is                                                               
something he cares about.                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
1:15:02 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE FAIRCLOUGH  requested Mr. Brown to  address how he                                                               
would work  toward a solution  on a  polarized issue that  may go                                                               
beyond fisheries  and how would  he ensure that everyone  has the                                                               
opportunity to speak about their position on the issue.                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
MR.  BROWN  responded  he suspects  it  happens  frequently  that                                                               
people come  in with  a predisposition  and assumption  that they                                                               
will dislike what another person has  to say.  There will have to                                                               
be  decisions  made   that  not  everyone  likes,   but  if  they                                                               
understand the reasoning behind the  decision - if the discussion                                                               
is transparent  and the  rationale is transparent  - that  is the                                                               
best a person  can do.  He  said he does not pretend  that he can                                                               
please everyone.  "When you  deal with people that have different                                                               
views, as long as  they think you are fair, that  is the best you                                                               
can do."                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
1:17:21 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE   FAIRCLOUGH   acknowledged   that  one   of   the                                                               
responsibilities  of serving  on  the Board  of  Fisheries is  to                                                               
protect  the fishing  assets  of  the state.    She  said she  is                                                               
looking for people  who can analyze the process,  debate it, hold                                                               
their  own  gun  at  why  they believe,  and  articulate  to  the                                                               
audience their  reasoning for the  position that they take.   She                                                               
asked  Mr. Brown  how  he will  handle an  issue  similar to  the                                                               
Pebble Mine and prioritize his responsibilities to the state.                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
MR. BROWN  replied that what  he knows  about the Pebble  Mine is                                                               
what he reads  in the newspaper which has little  detail.  If the                                                               
board was  asked to  take a  position for  or against  the Pebble                                                               
Mine, all he could do is study  the issue as much as possible and                                                               
come  to  a rational  decision  on  it.    He said  mining  today                                                               
pollutes  less than  it used  to, but  he does  not know  whether                                                               
salmon streams  would remain  safe.   Regardless of  the position                                                               
taken by the  board, he would make sure all  the involved parties                                                               
knew exactly why the board got  to its conclusion - the data that                                                               
was looked at, how the data  was analyzed, what competing use was                                                               
compared, and that sort of thing.                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
1:19:34 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE FAIRCLOUGH referenced the  opposition to the other                                                               
two  nominees   expressed  on  [3/17/08]   from  people   in  the                                                               
Matanuska-Susitna Valley.   She asked  Mr. Brown what  process he                                                               
would  use for  gathering  information to  address  the issue  of                                                               
returning salmon to Matanuska-Susitna Valley streams.                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
MR. BROWN answered the history must  be looked at, along with the                                                               
number of  fish that  are getting  upriver to spawn.   This  is a                                                               
number issue,  he said.  The  data is really difficult  to assess                                                               
when there  is mixed  stock and  some of  the salmon  species are                                                               
endangered and  some are  not.  He  said if he  were the  czar in                                                               
making  the decision,  he would  make it  a point  that all  user                                                               
groups  got their  fair  share.   However,  the  problem is  that                                                               
everyone wants  more.   As long  as it can  be ensured  that next                                                               
year  there will  be  at least  as  many salmon  as  this year  -                                                               
sustainable harvesting - then that  is the right track.  Whatever                                                               
decision is made -  a few thousand pounds less to  one group or a                                                               
few more days  opening to another group - someone  is going to be                                                               
upset.   The  best the  board  can do  is  show why  it made  the                                                               
decision and that the decision was not arbitrary or capricious.                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
1:21:35 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE WILSON  asked whether Mr. Brown  thinks of himself                                                               
as a fair person.                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
MR.  BROWN  responded  yes.    He surmised  the  context  of  the                                                               
question  is  whether  a  decision  he might  make  is  more  for                                                               
commercial or  more for subsistence  or something like that.   He                                                               
said he does not have an agenda;  he does not make his money from                                                               
any of those industries.  As  an economist and a world citizen he                                                               
recognizes that  Alaska is  going to feed  the world  with salmon                                                               
and he wants  that commercial industry to survive,  plus he likes                                                               
to eat  good salmon in  the winter when  he does not  sport fish.                                                               
Subsistence is  a reason he  moved to  Alaska; a person  can live                                                               
off the land in Alaska.  Yes, he thinks he is a fair person.                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
1:24:59 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  SEATON noted  that  salmon is  only  one of  many                                                               
fishery issues before  the Board of Fisheries.   He recounted the                                                               
establishment of the new state  waters fisheries in marine waters                                                               
in 1993.   He  asked whether  Mr. Brown  supports a  slower paced                                                               
fishery over  a longer period  of time  versus one where  all the                                                               
gear is  allowed for a much  faster paced fishery over  a shorter                                                               
length of time.                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
MR.  BROWN surmised  Representative  Seaton  was referencing  the                                                               
halibut fishery that  used to have 24- or 48-hour  openings a few                                                               
times during the summer but is now open much of the year.                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  SEATON  said the  state  took  management of  the                                                               
Pacific cod  fishery from the federal  government because federal                                                               
government management  of the cod  fishery was "catch as  much as                                                               
you can  as quick  as you  can."   It was  becoming a  very short                                                               
fishery and for  a long period of time the  local communities did                                                               
not have  access to that fishery.   A state guideline  policy was                                                               
set  up to  manage  everything within  a  three-mile distance  of                                                               
shore,  with  the  exception  of halibut  which  is  a  federally                                                               
managed  species.   The guidelines  established the  use of  gear                                                               
that  had low  bycatch  and limited  the amount  of  gear so  the                                                               
fishery  would be  stretched out  for  a longer  period of  time.                                                               
This resulted  in less chance  of overharvest and gave  the local                                                               
communities access  to the fishery.   He asked whether  this fits                                                               
into Mr. Brown's  idea of economics as far as  aiding Alaskans to                                                               
participate in a fishery.                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
MR.  BROWN stated  not  only does  he  favor what  Representative                                                               
Seaton is saying, it makes  sense economically because it is more                                                               
efficient.   Pulse fishing  is an inefficient  way to  catch fish                                                               
and it is  bad for the people.   If he understands  what is being                                                               
said, it is a slam-dunk for  the economics and it makes sense for                                                               
the communities.                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
1:30:15 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR GATTO  inquired what  questions Mr.  Brown would  ask of                                                               
someone who was presenting a  proposal to the board to transplant                                                               
geoducks  from a  place where  they  occur naturally  to a  place                                                               
where they do not occur naturally.                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
MR. BROWN  replied that is  pretty much  what has been  done with                                                               
oysters.   The  first question  would be,  Is there  going to  be                                                               
environmental harm?   What would the geoducks displace?   What is                                                               
the waste going  to be?  The  second issue if it  is a legislator                                                               
is, What  are the financial  interests involved?   He said  he is                                                               
glad  shellfish  farming is  allowed  in  Alaska, but  there  are                                                               
environmental concerns so the state needs to be careful.                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR JOHNSON thanked Mr. Brown for his testimony.                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
1:32:31 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR JOHNSON  requested Mr. Jensen  to state why he  wants to                                                               
be re-appointed to the Board of Fisheries.                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
JOHN  E. JENSEN,  Appointee  to the  Board  of Fisheries,  Alaska                                                               
Department of  Fish & Game, responded,  "I love it."   He said he                                                               
was  born and  raised in  Petersburg  and is  a third  generation                                                               
Alaskan.  He  started commercial fishing at age 15  and has owned                                                               
and operated  many different commercial  fishing vessels  and has                                                               
participated  in  various areas  throughout  the  state.   He  is                                                               
currently the vice chair of  the Board of Fisheries, president of                                                               
the  halibut  and  sablefish committee  for  the  Alaska  Seafood                                                               
Marketing  Institute  (ASMI),  and  president  of  the  Southeast                                                               
Alaska Regional Seafood Development Association.                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
1:33:49 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE ROSES  inquired how Mr. Jensen  balances his long-                                                               
standing special  interest and  economic benefit  from commercial                                                               
fisheries against the needs of  sport, subsistence, and personal-                                                               
use fisheries throughout the state.                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
MR. JENSEN  answered he has been  a subsistence user and  a sport                                                               
fisherman  all  his  life,  but   how  he  makes  his  living  is                                                               
commercial fishing.  He said he  believes he is a fair person and                                                               
he  listens to  all information  presented -  public and  written                                                               
testimony  and   staff  comments.    He   takes  everything  into                                                               
consideration and believes he evaluates  things fairly.  A lot of                                                               
the time  he weighs everything  heavily on the  Alaska Department                                                               
of Fish & Game's assessment because  the department is the one on                                                               
the  ground assessing  the  fisheries.   In  further response  to                                                               
Representative Roses,  Mr. Jensen said  he has been on  the board                                                               
for six years and his third term is over at the end of June.                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
1:35:42 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE ROSES  asked whether there are  any past decisions                                                               
that Mr. Jensen subsequently regretted and, if so, why.                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
MR.  JENSEN responded  he  has discussed  this  with other  board                                                               
members quite a bit.  There may  have been some bad calls, but he                                                               
does  not  believe  he  has  made  any  serious  mistakes.    The                                                               
fisheries  in Alaska  are  healthy and  they  are retaining  that                                                               
level,  but there  are a  few  places in  the state  that have  a                                                               
little bit  more problems than  others.  He  said there may  be a                                                               
few things  in some of  his decisions,  but not the  whole thing.                                                               
He said he thinks the board has done really well.                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE ROSES  inquired whether  Mr. Jensen  considers the                                                               
board to be currently well  balanced with a diversity of opinions                                                               
and positions.                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
MR. JENSEN replied  he believes the board is  well balanced right                                                               
now and  the members  work well together  even though  members do                                                               
not often agree on everything.                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
1:37:51 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  SEATON noted  that it  appears from  Mr. Jensen's                                                               
résumé  that he  has  not participated  in  the salmon  fisheries                                                               
since 1996, other than running a tender.                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
MR.   JENSEN  answered   correct.     In   further  response   to                                                               
Representative  Seaton,  Mr.  Jensen  said  his  main  income  is                                                               
currently from  the Southeast Alaska  Dungeness crab  fishery and                                                               
when  there  is   a  king  crab  season  in   Southeast  he  will                                                               
participate in that,  along with the tanner crab season.   He has                                                               
a  relatively small  individual fishing  quota (IFQ)  for halibut                                                               
that is getting smaller every year.                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
1:39:51 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE FAIRCLOUGH  requested Mr.  Jensen to speak  to the                                                               
Matanuska-Susitna  issue  as  brought  up  by  witnesses  at  the                                                               
[3/17/08]  hearing.   Additionally,  she asked  what process  Mr.                                                               
Jensen would  go through for  a polarized issue to  determine the                                                               
value  of  the resource  and  which  Alaskans will  receive  that                                                               
resource.                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
MR. JENSEN  replied he was  surprised at the opposition  from the                                                               
Matanuska-Susitna Valley.   He said he thought the  board did the                                                               
right thing.  There are several  issues involved.  In the last 10                                                               
years there  have been  large over-escapements  in the  Kenai and                                                               
Kasilof rivers.   At the  same time  the Yentna and  the "Mat-Su"                                                               
have not  had very good science  showing whether or not  they are                                                               
getting their  escapements.   There are  issues with  whether the                                                               
escapement test methods are accurate.   At that meeting the board                                                               
decided  to manage  the  fisheries for  escapement  goals in  the                                                               
Kenai and  Kasilof rivers and to  make at least the  lower end of                                                               
the escapement  goals in  the Yentna  River.   That made  it seem                                                               
like  the board  gave  the  commercial fishermen  a  leg up  over                                                               
everyone else;  the commercial fishermen  are the only  ones that                                                               
could catch  that amount of  fish to stop  these over-escapements                                                               
in the Kenai and Kasilof  rivers.  The state's biggest population                                                               
resides in the  Matanuska-Susitna area and there  is an increased                                                               
demand for  that fish.   The records  the board looked  at during                                                               
that meeting  show that from  1977 to  1995 the total  Upper Cook                                                               
Inlet sport fish  harvest was up 385,000.  From  1996 to 2006 the                                                               
average was in the neighborhood of  570,000 fish.  So, he said he                                                               
thinks the board  did the right thing when it  made that decision                                                               
and he thinks there is  more escapement there than the department                                                               
sees.   The sport fishing  results show that there  is definitely                                                               
an increase  in catch of the  fish, but that goes  along with the                                                               
increase  in demand  for the  fish.   Regarding the  Chukchi Sea,                                                               
Pebble Mine,  and other issues  where the Board of  Fisheries has                                                               
any say,  Mr. Jensen said he  believes the board should  have all                                                               
the information  in front  of it  before making  a decision.   No                                                               
decisions should  be based on rhetoric  and hearsay.  He  said he                                                               
likes to look at the information  and see what is involved in the                                                               
permitting process.  Once all the  data is in front of the board,                                                               
then an intelligent decision can be made.                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
1:44:46 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  GUTTENBERG said  his  question is  about how  the                                                               
internal  function  of the  board  operates  and how  Mr.  Jensen                                                               
operates inside of that.  "When  there ... is an issue before the                                                               
board and there is no user  group represented on the board and it                                                               
is in  opposition to someone  that is a  user group on  the other                                                               
side  of  the  issue,  do you  ever  find  yourself  representing                                                               
somebody that  is not  represented on  the board  against another                                                               
member?" he asked.                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
MR.  JENSEN answered  no,  he approaches  all  the proposals  and                                                               
makes all his decisions  with an open mind.  He  does not come to                                                               
a meeting  with his mind made  up on an issue,  although he might                                                               
have some preconceived  notions about what is going on.   He said                                                               
he listens  to all  the data that  is given to  the board  and he                                                               
tries to  make his  decisions in  favor of  the resource.   After                                                               
that,  the board's  biggest job  is allocation  amongst the  user                                                               
groups and he tries his best to be as fair as he can be.                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
1:46:22 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  GUTTENBERG said  his concern  is when  no one  is                                                               
there speaking for someone who might  not have a lobbyist or user                                                               
group at the  board meeting.  Who speaks for  the people that are                                                               
not there, he asked.                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
MR. JENSEN  responded that  generally every  user group  has some                                                               
representation  there.    When making  allocation  decisions  the                                                               
board uses  a list of eight  evaluation criteria and each  one of                                                               
those criteria is addressed on the  record.  The criteria go from                                                               
value to the state, value to  the communities, value to the local                                                               
area,  the history  of the  fisheries, the  participation in  the                                                               
fisheries,  and so  on.   Another  guideline  the board  follows,                                                               
especially  with   salmon  issues,  is  the   Sustainable  Salmon                                                               
Fisheries Management Policy.                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
1:48:10 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE ROSES inquired whether  Mr. Jensen had any comment                                                               
on the new financial disclosure  requirements as compared to what                                                               
they were before.                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
MR. JENSEN replied  his wife helps him with this  and she said it                                                               
was much  harder to  fill out  [the form] this  time than  it was                                                               
before and it took about four hours to do.                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  ROSES  asked whether  Mr.  Jensen  has heard  any                                                               
comments  from other  board members  that they  are reconsidering                                                               
serving on the board because the  disclosures now go too far into                                                               
confidential and personal information.                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
MR. JENSEN answered he has not heard any comments that severe.                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
1:49:53 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR GATTO  inquired whether the eight  criteria mentioned by                                                               
Mr. Jensen are weighted equally.                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
MR. JENSEN  said he  believes they were  designed to  be weighted                                                               
fairly and he  tries to look at  both sides of the  issue when he                                                               
is  addressing the  criteria.    One answer  may  be  good for  a                                                               
commercial fisherman but  not for a sport fisherman,  so he tries                                                               
to make it so it balances out.                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE   WILSON   disclosed   that  Mr.   Jensen   is   a                                                               
constituent.   She said  she thinks  he is doing  a good  job and                                                               
appreciates  that he  tries to  be fair  and look  at all  of the                                                               
facts before making a decision.                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
1:51:23 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR JOHNSON  requested Mr.  Jensen to address  the following                                                               
quote that was  attributed to him during  testimony on [3/17/08]:                                                               
"If you don't  have a limited entry permit, you  are not entitled                                                               
to more fish."                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
MR. JENSEN  stated he made a  quote, but that was  not the quote.                                                               
"We  were  talking about  increasing  numbers  of people  ...  in                                                               
different user  groups; for  example ...  sport fishing  can keep                                                               
increasing ...  as the population does.  ... What I said  in that                                                               
quote  was  that  commercial   fishermen  have  CFEC  [Commercial                                                               
Fisheries Entry  Commission] permits  and ...  there is  a finite                                                               
limit on the  amount of permits.  So ...  everybody else can grow                                                               
in numbers, but the commercial fisherman can't."                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
1:52:30 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  EDGMON observed  that Mr.  Jensen is  chairman of                                                               
the  restructuring committee.   He  inquired what  this committee                                                               
does and what its charge is.                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR.  JENSEN responded  that a  few  years ago  the board  started                                                               
getting proposals that did not quite  fit in with the rest of the                                                               
proposals, and  the board  figured they  deserved a  closer look.                                                               
For example,  there are people in  Bristol Bay who feel  a longer                                                               
boat would be better for  facilitating better quality fish.  Boat                                                               
length has been 32 feet since  statehood, at least.  So, that was                                                               
put  into the  restructuring  committee.   Another  issue in  the                                                               
restructuring committee  is dual permits,  which is still  on the                                                               
table.   One person can  own two permits  and in Bristol  Bay the                                                               
owner of two  permits is entitled to another unit  of gear, which                                                               
is 50  fathoms, so he or  she would essentially be  fishing a 200                                                               
fathom net instead of  a 150 fathom net.  But,  at the same time,                                                               
having two  permits results  in taking  another boat  and another                                                               
100 fathoms out of  the fishery.  So, in a  way it reduces effort                                                               
but  in  another way  it  consolidates  the  fishery.   There  is                                                               
another meeting in  April [2008].  So far [the  board] has passed                                                               
only  one  official  restructuring proposal,  which  was  brought                                                               
forth by  the Kodiak setnetters  to allow  one person to  own two                                                               
setnet permits and operate them.                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR  JOHNSON   noted  his   appreciation  of   Mr.  Jensen's                                                               
testimony and past service.                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
1:55:13 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR JOHNSON  requested Mr. Morris  to state why he  wants to                                                               
be re-appointed to the Board of Fisheries.                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
MELVAN  E.  MORRIS JR.,  Appointee  to  the Board  of  Fisheries,                                                               
Alaska Department of Fish &  Game, replied he considers the board                                                               
a public  service and  something he  can do  as a  retired person                                                               
from the  industry and  previous commercial  fisheries biologist.                                                               
He enjoys looking at the issues  and working with the people.  It                                                               
is  a good  way to  terminate a  career as  an Alaskan  in Alaska                                                               
fisheries.                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
1:56:23 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE   ROSES  asked   how  Mr.   Morris,  when   making                                                               
decisions, balances  his own financial  interests in  the seafood                                                               
industry   with   other   interests  like   sport   fishing   and                                                               
subsistence.                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. MORRIS answered M & M  Marketing is not exactly a company, it                                                               
is a name for his activity.   It is a sales and services company,                                                               
there are  no tangible assets  to it.  As  far as Cook  Inlet, he                                                               
provides  quality  control  in  one   plant  once  the  fish  are                                                               
processed.  So, he  said, there is no conflict as  to what he can                                                               
do in making decisions as to whether  M & M Marketing is going to                                                               
benefit.                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
MR.   MORRIS  addressed   Representative  Guttenberg's   previous                                                               
question  about  how  do  people  get  represented  at  Board  of                                                               
Fisheries meetings.   First,  the proposals  come out  in August.                                                               
Many  people  write in  with  their  thoughts  on a  proposal  or                                                               
proposals, so they  do not have to  be at the meeting  to be well                                                               
represented.  The  board gets stacks of correspondence  up to and                                                               
throughout the  meeting.  He said  he thinks the process  is good                                                               
and the  committee process is good.   The people that  are at the                                                               
meeting participate and  are able to listen to  the board members                                                               
and ask questions of the board members.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
MR. MORRIS, in  regard to his ability to consider  all the issues                                                               
when making  decisions, noted  that the  board gets  reports from                                                               
the Alaska Department  of Fish & Game (ADF&G),  listens to public                                                               
testimony,  and receives  letters.   Board members  ask a  lot of                                                               
questions, he said,  and he calls on people who  are not speaking                                                               
so he can hear what everyone has to say about an issue.                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
1:59:59 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE ROSES recited the  public process just spelled out                                                               
by Mr. Morris and inquired  whether Mr. Morris would characterize                                                               
his  representation on  the  board as  being  perfectly fair  and                                                               
balanced among all users.                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
MR. MORRIS  noted there  is also  the deliberation  process where                                                               
board members listen to each  other.  Many times the deliberation                                                               
process provides  a lot  of information and  helps him  and other                                                               
board members to  make up their minds.  All  those things have to                                                               
come into  play because that  it is part of  the process.   As to                                                               
whether he  can be fair  in making up his  mind, he said  he must                                                               
first consider the resource.   The resource, the habitat, and the                                                               
environment all come  first, then subsistence, and  then the user                                                               
groups.   When he makes  those considerations and then  goes into                                                               
allocations, the participation of the  user groups in the meeting                                                               
is  especially important,  whether  through  letters or  personal                                                               
representation, because  no one  is an expert  on all  the issues                                                               
throughout the state as it pertains to user groups.                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
2:02:13 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE ROSES asked  whether Mr. Morris has  ever made any                                                               
decisions while  on the board  that he  later wished he  had done                                                               
differently.                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. MORRIS  explained that the  board has two processes  - agenda                                                               
change  requests  (ACRs)  and  emergency   petitions.    After  a                                                               
proposal  is published  people can  express their  concerns about                                                               
something that  has been done  through an agenda  change request.                                                               
This  allows the  board to  take up  the issue  again, even  if a                                                               
regulation was made  just a few months  before.  Or, if  it is an                                                               
issue that clearly  appears to have some  ramifications for which                                                               
concerns are expressed, the board can  take it up as an emergency                                                               
petition at  any time.   Therefore,  what the  board does  is not                                                               
necessarily  written in  stone.   There have  been times  when he                                                               
felt the board needed to accept  ACRs, he said.  For example, the                                                               
board felt the Adak state waters  cod fishery had not slowed down                                                               
enough to be truly a state  waters fishery and the board is still                                                               
looking at  issues and has taken  up a number of  ACRs for those.                                                               
So he  does not necessarily have  to live with a  mistake because                                                               
it can be taken up again through these processes, he said.                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
2:04:45 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE ROSES inquired whether  Mr. Morris has any comment                                                               
on the new financial disclosure  requirements as compared to what                                                               
they were before.                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
MR.  MORRIS answered  he  hopes  he filled  out  the right  forms                                                               
because he  did not see  a whole lot of  difference.  He  did not                                                               
see anything  that would  cause him  to feel he  did not  want to                                                               
continue on the board.  He  thinks the board is too important and                                                               
he is assuming the information is confidential.                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
2:05:45 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR JOHNSON  related the  concern expressed  during previous                                                               
testimony   [on   3/17/08]   regarding  Mr.   Morris's   business                                                               
ownership.   Does M  & M  Marketing have  a business  license, he                                                               
asked.                                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
MR. MORRIS responded no, he determined he did not need one.                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR  JOHNSON  inquired whether  M  &  M Marketing  generates                                                               
revenue.                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
MR. MORRIS  replied that at times  he can generate revenue  if he                                                               
does  brokering or  something  like  that.   There  are no  fixed                                                               
assets or employees, it is strictly a name for himself.                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR  JOHNSON   asked  whether  Mr.  Morris   has  ever  made                                                               
decisions  on the  board affecting  the fisheries  of any  of his                                                               
clients.                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
MR.  MORRIS answered  yes, two  or three  years ago  there was  a                                                               
proposal to  open a state  waters pollock fishery off  of Seward.                                                               
He had  sold some pollock  two or three  years ago for  a company                                                               
that had  ownership of a small  plant there.  He  said he recused                                                               
himself from dealing with that proposal.                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
2:07:51 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. MORRIS,  in response to  Co-Chair Gatto, confirmed he  is the                                                               
president [of M & M Marketing] and has no employees.                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR GATTO  observed that  Mr. Morris's  résumé states  he is                                                               
the president  rather than the  owner of [M  & M Marketing].   He                                                               
said  this could  be misleading  because knowing  someone is  the                                                               
owner of a  business is more important than knowing  he or she is                                                               
employed  by  a  business.     He  inquired  whether  Mr.  Morris                                                               
accidently  left  that off  or  felt  that  it was  not  anything                                                               
significant.                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. MORRIS said  he had both owner and president  on one business                                                               
card, but on the  next batch he just used president.   He said as                                                               
far as he is concerned they are interchangeable.                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR  GATTO noted  he is  referring  to the  résumé that  Mr.                                                               
Morris submitted  and the  committee does  not have  Mr. Morris's                                                               
business card.   He asked whether Mr. Morris  felt it unnecessary                                                               
to state he was the owner of the business.                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
MR. MORRIS  responded yes, he  considered it  unnecessary because                                                               
on the  first two lines of  his ethics disclosure form  he stated                                                               
his sources of income include  his seafood marketing company, M &                                                               
M Marketing.                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
2:10:10 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE GUTTENBERG  inquired whether  Mr. Morris  is still                                                               
involved in Wakefield Seafoods.                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
MR.  MORRIS  replied no,  not  really.    He  is only  a  distant                                                               
observer of  the crab  fisheries now.   Of  course, the  Board of                                                               
Fisheries does make regulations regarding the crab fishery.                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  FAIRCLOUGH requested  Mr.  Morris  to respond  to                                                               
those people who are opposing his confirmation.                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
MR. MORRIS answered everyone has  the right to their own opinion,                                                               
but some of the statements  were inaccurate.  He understands that                                                               
someone  with local  knowledge  believes  in what  he  or she  is                                                               
saying, even when ADF&G's data  or research biologists are saying                                                               
something different, because  the local person is  on the grounds                                                               
and is not catching  fish and is concerned.  He  said he can only                                                               
deal with  the issue from the  perspective of the tools  that are                                                               
available to  him and  the tools  he can  give the  biologists to                                                               
deal with the  issues.  He said  he does not have  a problem with                                                               
people  speaking  against  him  and  if  they  can  make  a  good                                                               
argument, then  the committee should  probably not vote  for him.                                                               
But, in his opinion, he has done  a good job and will continue to                                                               
do  a good  job and  he looks  forward to  serving another  three                                                               
years.                                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
2:13:20 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE FAIRCLOUGH  related that sport fishermen  from the                                                               
Matanuska-Susitna  area  testified  that Mr.  Morris's  decisions                                                               
affected the  [salmon] runs into  their area.  She  requested Mr.                                                               
Morris  to address  the  fishermen's feeling  that  they did  not                                                               
receive a fair appropriation of the asset.                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
MR.  MORRIS responded  he  is unsure  which  decisions the  sport                                                               
fishermen  are  referring  to  that  would  have  impacted  their                                                               
ability  to get  fish up  in  the inlet.    He said  he did  vote                                                               
against  expanding the  commercial fishery  for coho  salmon, and                                                               
that did  go down.   He  would have  supported expanding  the bag                                                               
limit  from  two to  three  for  coho  salmon, except  ADF&G  was                                                               
opposed to  it because  the department  could not  make in-season                                                               
adjustments.   He  supported the  yield stock  of concern  on the                                                               
Yentna River  for a number of  reasons.  Accurate data  is needed                                                               
because the  counter on  the river  may be  under counting  by 50                                                               
percent or  more, and there  are also  some issues with  pike and                                                               
beaver dams.  He supported being  able to deal with those issues.                                                               
He said  the board made  a closure  on the commercial  fishery in                                                               
the Central  District of the  Upper Cook  Inlet so that  when the                                                               
setnetters were  not fishing the  driftnetters would not  be able                                                               
to  fish in  the corridor.    Overall, the  board had  to make  a                                                               
balance.    As  pointed  out  by  Mr.  Jensen,  there  are  over-                                                               
escapement issues on  the Kenai and Kasilof rivers.   In order to                                                               
address those issues, which have  amounted to around 700,000 fish                                                               
a  year  for the  last  10  years, the  board  had  to give  some                                                               
flexibility  to  the  fisheries  managers,  but  the  board  made                                                               
certain that the management plans  did not change from the aspect                                                               
of providing escapement  to the upper inlet.   The board received                                                               
data from  the staff that  showed the  sport fish harvest  in the                                                               
upper  inlet has  increased 55  percent over  the last  10 years.                                                               
Therefore, he does not know  what proposals were being spoken to.                                                               
In every case he  felt he took the side of  the resource and then                                                               
made  a  fair and  equitable  sharing  of  that resource  by  the                                                               
stakeholders.                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
2:17:22 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  FAIRCLOUGH  asked  how  Mr. Morris,  as  a  board                                                               
member,  prioritizes the  fishery  resource  against other  needs                                                               
across the state.  She  further asked whether Mr. Morris believes                                                               
mining  can  be  accomplished  without  adverse  effects  to  the                                                               
fisheries.                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
MR. MORRIS stated  he was in Alaska during  the territorial days.                                                               
Alaska became  a state  because of wanting  to be  independent of                                                               
the government  telling the state  what it could do,  he related,                                                               
although  that is  still being  seen  in places  like the  Arctic                                                               
National Wildlife Refuge.   The state's resources  should be ours                                                               
to use as long  as they are used wisely.  He  said he cannot give                                                               
any valid assessment  as to what would happen if  the Pebble Mine                                                               
is  opened, but  he can  say he  is in  favor of  seeing Alaska's                                                               
resources utilized  as long as they  are protected.  Mining  is a                                                               
nonrenewable resource  and fish are  renewable and the  fish must                                                               
be protected  first.   Any mining  or harvesting  of nonrenewable                                                               
resources has  to be  secondary to  the renewable  resources, but                                                               
there is a  permitting process in place.   He said Representative                                                               
Edgmon is  correct that the  Board of  Fisheries did not  take an                                                               
action last  year in  Dillingham.  The  proposal that  was before                                                               
the board  would have allowed  the board to develop  a resolution                                                               
against the mine.   The board instead formed  a habitat committee                                                               
and  this  committee participated  in  all  the meetings  of  the                                                               
Department of Natural Resources (DNR)  and whoever else, and then                                                               
the  committee reported  back  to  the board.    After the  first                                                               
series  of meetings  it was  determined  that, at  this point  in                                                               
time, the  safeguards for the  mine are inadequate to  ensure the                                                               
mine  could proceed  without having  additional concerns  for the                                                               
[fishery] resource.                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
2:21:46 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR GATTO pointed  out that a substantially  high percent of                                                               
the   people  in   his  Matanuska-Susitna   district  are   sport                                                               
fishermen.  He  inquired whether Mr. Morris said the  fish are up                                                               
55 percent in Upper Cook Inlet.                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
MR. MORRIS replied  no, he had said the sport  fish harvest is up                                                               
55  percent.   In  further response,  Mr.  Morris reaffirmed  his                                                               
belief in  local knowledge  and clarified he  is not  saying that                                                               
someone can  catch 55 percent more  fish than he or  she used to.                                                               
He  said  he  is  merely  explaining that  when  the  board  made                                                               
decisions, this is some of the  data that was before the members.                                                               
It was not all of the data, but he assumed it was accurate.                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
2:23:26 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE ROSES asked  what the percentage of  change was in                                                               
the  commercial take  for that  same region  over that  same time                                                               
period.                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
MR. MORRIS said  that information was in "RC 83"  which was given                                                               
out  at  the meeting.    He  said he  thinks  the  fact that  the                                                               
Northern District  became a  stock of  concern for  yield concern                                                               
pretty much  tells that  the harvests  of the  commercial fishery                                                               
were certainly down, but he will have to look for the paperwork.                                                                
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  ROSES   requested  Mr.   Morris  to   submit  the                                                               
paperwork for  the record  if he  is able to  find it  because it                                                               
would be helpful to know  what happened with the commercial catch                                                               
in relation to the sport catch.                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
MR. MORRIS reiterated  that the reason the Yentna  River became a                                                               
stock  of concern  was  because  of the  failing  harvest and  he                                                               
believes  it came  down something  like 78  percent, but  he will                                                               
have to do a little digging.                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
2:25:28 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE SEATON  noted that six guidelines  were adopted in                                                               
1993  for establishing  new  state waters  fisheries.   He  asked                                                               
whether  the board  applies  those guidelines  when  it works  on                                                               
management  regimes  such  as starting  a  completely  new  state                                                               
waters fishery or restructuring.                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
MR. MORRIS  answered he is not  familiar with them.   He said the                                                               
only  state waters  fishery initiated  since he  has been  on the                                                               
board is the  Adak pea cod fishery where the  board was concerned                                                               
about hitting the  "jeopardy bar" regarding the  Steller sea lion                                                               
and the Endangered Species Act.   The board adopted basically the                                                               
same  fishery that  was in  existence except  pulling the  entire                                                               
allocation into the  state waters fishery.  From  there the board                                                               
made some tweaks and modifications  to make it more favorable for                                                               
the state waters fishermen.                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  SEATON   suggested  Mr.  Morris  pull   up  those                                                               
guidelines to  see if they are  still in effect and  whether they                                                               
are something the  board can utilize in the  development of other                                                               
saltwater fisheries.   In response to  Mr. Morris, Representative                                                               
Seaton said he believed the  guidelines were in policy as opposed                                                               
to regulation.                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
2:29:08 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR GATTO moved that the  House Resources Standing Committee                                                               
forward the names of Mr. William  Brown, Mr. John Jensen, and Mr.                                                               
Melvan Morris  Jr. to a  joint session for consideration.   There                                                               
being no objection,  the names of Mr. Brown, Mr.  Jensen, and Mr.                                                               
Morris were advanced.                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR  JOHNSON  thanked Mr.  Morris  for  his service  to  the                                                               
country as a veteran as well as to the state.                                                                                   
                                                                                                                              
ADJOURNMENT                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
There being no  further business before the  committee, the House                                                               
Resources Standing Committee meeting was adjourned at 2:30 p.m.                                                                 

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